Podcast: what is deep canvassing and how do you get started?
I was recently interviewed on Joe Fuld’s podcast “How to Win a Campaign.” Joe is a political consultant who I greatly respect. I’ve known him since the 1990’s, when he succeeded me as the person running the national training programs for the LGBTQ+ Victory Fund and Victory Foundation.
If you prefer listening to reading, here’s the entire 1-hour podcast: https://www.thecampaignworkshop.com/video/deep-canvassing
I’ve also posted the podcast dialogue below, edited lightly for clarity and concision. Joe’s questions are in bold; my responses follow.
And, if you are a podcast person, at the end of this post is a description of the next podcast I’m on. It’s mostly for doctors, nurses, and other health care professionals who want to learn about deep canvassing and motivational interviewing, approaches from politics and from medicine that share a great deal, including that they work.
Intro by Joe Fuld
David Fleischer is the founder and former director of the Los Angeles LGBT Center’s Leadership LAB, and the creator of the pioneering outreach approach called “deep canvassing”.
Before the Leadership Lab, David led political training programs at the LGBTQ Victory Fund and the National LGBTQ Task Force. He has politically organized all over the country, advocating for LGBTQ+ rights for decades. His work has been profiled in major publications such as The Atlantic and the New York Times. David has an amazing Substack you should check out; it’s about deep canvassing and its empirically proven ability to change hearts and minds.
This week, we asked Dave 7 questions about his career path and experience.
So Dave, talk about what you’re up to these days.
I'm doing two things.
I am writing about deep canvassing to try to put it in human terms, to make it easier for people to try—because the truth is, we just have too few people doing it. And if somebody lives where there's going to be a really close election, this approach potentially could make the difference between whether we have a terrible, tragic outcome in 2024 or whether our country makes it through. I'm not under any illusions that writing alone can save the world, but maybe writing will help more people decide how to step up at a moment when we desperately need their help.
The second thing I'm doing is spending time in some of the places where elections are sure to be close. I was just in Wisconsin visiting with different community leaders. I am encouraging them to start talking face-to-face with voters much earlier than they normally do, because honestly—and I almost hate to say this aloud—but we've got to acknowledge the reality. The Republican Party has decided that its strategy for winning is disinformation, prejudice, division, and appeals to fear. As a result, we are about to see an election year like none we've seen in my lifetime, where chaos is going to be a frequent companion to any political activity; and where, sadly, the Republican party's willingness to legitimate violence is predictably going to make it very difficult if we wait and start late. In the final hundred days, when a lot of campaigns start, that's when things will hit the fan.
I want to help folks in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and other states start much earlier. When volunteer morale and voter outreach are going strong they are much easier to sustain when the political environment gets difficult.
For those who haven't read your earlier blogs, what is deep canvassing?
Deep canvassing is a set of best practices that give us a better chance to get somebody new on our side and voting with us. It's a way to overcome a lot of the misunderstanding that occurs when we start a conversation with somebody who's not just like us already.
Talk about how you got to deep canvassing in the aftermath of Prop 8. Talk a little about how this started and how deep Canvassing came about.
Proposition 8 was a vote in 2008 on whether or not LGBTQ+ couples could legally get married in California. Measures like this had been voted on in many other states around the country. We lost over 30 of these, but when we lost this vote in California, liberal California, when we were favored to win, and when every poll published in advance showed we were going to win, it really shook people up.
LGBT people felt hurt. They didn't understand what had happened, and neither did I. Were we mistaken in thinking that prejudice had lessened over time? How is it that so many people voted against our being able simply to marry the person we love? And so in December of 2009, I came to Los Angeles and met with a bunch of people. People wanted to act but did not know what to do that would be constructive. They felt very discouraged and angry—a bad combination for taking action and doing good thinking.
After meeting with people, I had a couple of ideas that I thought might be helpful. One turned out to be the best idea I've ever had in my life. Since polls obviously had failed to capture how we were really doing with voters, and since our own common sense and experience about our neighbors also was not helping us see our true situation, I thought, well, maybe we just need to go door-to-door in the neighborhoods where we got crushed, to talk to the people who voted against us and ask them why they did that. That is what led to the discovery of deep canvassing.
I had lost plenty of campaigns prior, but it had never occurred to me to go talk to the people who voted against us and find out why. I wish I (or someone!) had thought of this 30 years earlier.
As we began talking with the people who voted against us, we door-knocked a wide variety of Los Angeles neighborhoods—because quite honestly, we lost in a wide variety of Los Angeles neighborhoods—and we started to hear more than the superficial answers to that question. We got better at connecting with the voters so that they would talk more candidly about the feelings that were underneath. We discovered that we were starting to be able to change people's minds when we reached that depth of a conversation. Not because we could somehow magically talk people into it—anybody who thinks that's what persuasion looks like, that we can tell a fact or an argument and that will change a mind—is really mistaken when it comes to any person over the age of two.
Instead, here’s what can happen: when we help people reflect on what really matters to them most, some of their political opinions don't fit with how they behave in their real life with real human beings. We can help voters start to notice, wow, their opinions and what they do in real life don't fit together. So then we ask them to consider which matters more. It turns out they believe their real lived experience more than they believe their lousy opinions. And so some of them change their mind.
What do folks need to be successful at deep canvassing?
Well, the first thing they need is to not try to guess what it'll be like to do it until they do it. Because people's expectations about what it would be like to talk with a stranger are very, very pessimistic. Nick Epley has a great book about this called Mindwise.
People who've never or rarely canvassed or never deep canvassed, they're afraid these conversations are going to be brutally difficult. They're not.
They assume these conversations will lead to an argument. They don't.
The beauty of deep canvassing is we've learned that what works is to offer radical respect, unqualified respect and then listen to what they have to say. It turns out when we do that, people are surprised. They don't want to miss the opportunity to talk about what really matters to them to someone who is actually listening. Then some of these people change their mind. And when we deep canvass them and they change their mind, their minds stay changed. That's the unusual, possibly unique thing about deep canvassing.
What does an organization need to be successful at deep canvassing? What's the kind of commitment we're talking about to be successful in deep canvassing?
The funny thing is, it's not that hard. Almost every organization could do this.
Even if no existing organization wants to do it where you live, you can pull together a group of your friends and do it.
There are only a few things that you're going to need:
You're going to need a team of people who want to do it or at least try it.
You're going to need some training so that you get to practice and start to integrate the principles of deep canvassing into how you have your conversations.
As part of the training, you might need a little help with a script.
It's also helpful to have a list of all the voters you want to canvass so you can keep track of your results. You want to self-measure your effectiveness every single time you go out, and you want to do it in a way that's not going to give you an inflated sense of whether you're good yet. Don’t measure “doors knocked,” it tells you almost nothing about whether you’ll have an impact. Instead, track “completed conversations,” especially “completed conversations with voters who now seem much more likely to vote.”
Then—most importantly—when you try doing all this, you need to keep doing it. You may struggle at first but you will rapidly improve. So try it for a little while until you get the hang of it.
Honestly, anyone can initiate a deep canvassing project where they are. They might initially be afraid that their local effort is going to be very small, but we've had congressional races in the last couple of cycles decided by 100 votes, even as few as 6 votes. The truth is, one person and their friends could have changed the outcomes of these races by talking to a small number of people.
We're in a digital world and there's a digital bubble that filters a lot of our conversations. How does digital hurt conversation? Is there a way that digital can help in the conversations?
I use digital tools every day, but I try to use them for what they're good for. If I need to change a light bulb, I don't use a hammer. There are better tools available to change a light bulb. Hoping that our sending someone a digital communication will change their mind is similar to hoping that the hammer will change the light bulb. The tool is no good for that.
So when people ask me, when it comes to voter persuasion, is there an app for that? There isn't. An app cannot take the place of you having a conversation.
Is there anything you could post on social media that would change somebody's mind? No, there isn't. Because the most important things that happen in a deep canvass conversation are the words that come out of the mouth of the other person. That's what they really remember.
When people talk about American politics being polarized today and therefore people can't talk to each other, they're 100% wrong. They have the arrow of causation backwards. In fact, the only hope for depolarizing is for people to talk to each other, ideally face-to-face. You don't really know a person till you've been humble with them, curious about them, and respectful towards them. None of that is communicable online.
What advice do you have for folks who are organizing in the field right now? Do you have general advice?
Today, start a list today of your friends who might want to do this with you.
Tomorrow, start talking to them one-on-one describing why you're concerned. Ask if they're concerned. Describe what you want to try. Ask if they're open to trying it with you. You're going to find that you've got a team of people willing to try this with you.
In a week, when you have 5 or more team members, bring the team together. Figure out, who are you going to ask for training? Maybe there's a local group that already does this. There certainly are a few national groups that do this. I regularly Zoom with readers of my Substack who want to learn about this, so you can even get training from me should you want that.
Then, plan ahead, because people need training and then they've got to try it right away—they’ve got to go out deep canvassing. That’s how you learn. So train, have the whole team go out canvassing together, then evaluate. And commit to trying it at least three times so you relax and improve.
And don’t wait! Begin as soon as you can stand it. Because what if you love it? What if this ends up being the most satisfying, joyous political work you've ever done? Honestly, that is what it has been for me.
Can you talk about some of the challenges around building empathy these days, especially in a post-pandemic world?
Empathy is kind of a tricky word. Some people have a lot of it and some have less, even much less.
But everybody's got curiosity, and everybody can lean into their curiosity and develop it.
Personally, I am not the most naturally empathetic guy. It does not come naturally to me. I am so much better cognitively than I am using my emotional intelligence, honest to God. And yet here I am finding that the best political work I've ever done in my life requires me to draw upon the little bit of emotional intelligence I've got, augmented by my capacity for curiosity.
The cognitive part of me can also help because I know how to communicate respect to somebody, and I'm capable of being quiet and listening, especially when people are starting to talk about something that matters. Usually, that’s when you find some common ground.
The phrase “common ground” sounds obvious, but it isn't, because we tend to think common ground starts where we are. But finding common ground begins where they are. So we've got to be curious about every individual we meet, especially their real lived experience.
Can you talk a bit about how important storytelling is in your work?
Before we persuade anybody, we have to connect with them. They have to want to be part of this interaction with us. Storytelling makes connection much more likely—especially if we're talking with somebody who has a different take on politics and voting than we do.
Otherwise, if all we do is talk about our political opinions and we disagree, the conversation's over. Very rarely does it lead to a meeting of the minds.
But when we tell a story about somebody we love and we make ourselves vulnerable, the other person realizes we're not there to judge or shame them. They realize maybe they can trust us a little. So when we ask them to tell us a story about somebody they love, they might trust us enough to do that.
What deep canvassing illuminates compared to conventional canvassing is you can't just have a one-minute or two-minute conversation with a non-voter, somebody who's missed the last three presidential elections, and change their mind so they want to vote this year. It's not possible in two minutes.
But in 15 minutes, there's enough time for us to tell a vulnerable story of ours and listen to a story of theirs, and for us to help them notice the common ground, not because we're the same, but because we do share something really important that we discover in the course of the conversation. That's very exciting and it’s what helps them reconsider.
Can you talk a little bit about why testing and evaluation are so important and why other people should allow evaluation of their programs?
All of us know how crucial measurement is for anything we really care about. I don't know anybody who has a retirement account and they're not interested in the measurement of how much money is in it. I've just not met that person. I’ve never met a sports fan who is completely uninterested in the score. When things really matter to us, we always measure them.
So, in politics, if we are not going to measure, we're really saying this isn't important.
When we measure, we usually end up acknowledging that we’ve got to do something repeatedly until we’re good at it. Consistent effort and learning are prerequisites for getting a measurable result. What that means to me is the academics and institutions that are willing to measure us are our best friends.
You write quite a bit on your Substack, do you have a favorite thing you’ve written lately?
The single most practical piece is the one about how to help a non-voter decide they want to vote. Because in this country a third of the eligible voters didn't vote for president in the last presidential election. In fact, at least a third of all eligible voters in this country have failed to vote for president in every presidential election for the last 100 years. Millions of these non-voters already feel strongly about how terrible Donald Trump is. They are not hard to find.
So the simplest, easiest conversations you could begin with would be to talk to people who strongly dislike Trump and don't vote, and help them reconsider.
There's also another Substack piece specifically on how to talk to people who you know who sometimes miss elections.
Start with those two; they're short.
Are there any other things you are reading or listening to these days that inspire you?
I just finished Rachel Maddow's new book Prequel about the pro-Nazi movement to keep the US out of World War II and/or align the U.S. with Hitler. The book is a piece of history that we ought not to forget because the parallels to the moment we're in are striking.
But if that's feeling a little too dark for people, and if somebody told me they wanted to be a more empathetic person, what I would say is, read Ann Patchett. In particular, she has two books that collect her essays. My favorite—it’s so helpful—is called Mercies and it is in This is the Story of a Happy Marriage. It’s about her relationship with a nun who was her teacher in first, second, and third grade, and with whom she has remained friends over the course of her whole life. It reminds us that there are moments when we all need help.
How can folks get a hold of you if they want to learn more about deep canvassing?
They can find me on Substack by going to https://davefleischer.Substack.com and they can subscribe (it’s free) with the below:
Listeners and readers may also email me at deepcanvass@gmail.com. I try hard to respond to every email I get. If someone wants to know more, I want to help.
The next podcast where I am co-presenting
On May 6 Dave Fleischer and Andrew Goldstein will be focused on a critical technique that all of us should be aware of and if at all possible engage in – Deep Canvassing See immediately below for their bios. Looking forward to seeing you there!!
Dave Fleischer directed the team that pioneered deep canvassing, an approach to voter persuasion that gets more people on our side and voting even when more conventional approaches fall short. He is currently helping Changing the Conversation Together (CTC) as it deep canvasses in Philadelphia, as well as meeting with groups in Wisconsin who are curious about deep canvassing in cities and neighborhoods in the southeastern part of the state where voter turnout tends to be very low.
Andrew Goldstein is a primary care doctor at Bellevue Hospital in NYC and is an activist and organizer in several health justice spaces including the NY Doctors Coalition and the Doctors Council/SEIU union. Knowing that elections have big stakes, he started participating in deep canvassing election work in 2018, and has since been involved in helping organize deep canvassing campaigns in 2020 and 2024. As a doctor, he's seen how deep canvassing overlaps with the medical tool of "motivational interviewing," both rooted in respect, patience, listening, and facilitating action and habit change, and he hopes to engage more workers with this skill set in more election work.
To sign up for the live podcast on May 6, 2024 08:00 PM Eastern Time, you can register in advance at https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZIkf6trz0pGdG0ypCrP1MTQ2D8XWbZFBct.